Modxpo, Dallas 2010As I write this post I am sitting at my desk following a trip to Dallas to attend the 1st MODxpo. Going into this trip I was really excited about this opportunity to meet some of the cornerstone members of the MODx community and expand on my MODx knowledge.

On the former point I can say I was not disappointed. The venue was good and everyone involved was great. It was nice to put a face on many of the community members that I have been communicating with over recent years. I can honestly say that I had no appreciation for how long and how hard everyone at Collabpad has been working on the MODx project. All in all it was a positive experience.

On the latter point, coupled with an updated perspective on Revolution, my response was a little mixed. I would characterize the conference as being “programmer-centric”. The impression I also walked away with was that Revolution, at least in the short-term, is also “programmer-centric”. I have stated on many occasions that I am not a programmer, I am a developer. As a developer I tend to be the middleman between the graphic designer and a programmer. MODx is the tool that I use to bridge that particular gap, but for the most part I don’t write programming code.

I don’t want my comments here to be interpreted as being negative on the direction of Revolution, rather constructive in that they/we still have a long way to go with this project. I don’t know that as a non-programmer if I will be able to rapidly deploy Revolution, at least not until more of the commonly used resources are developed. Even after a full release there will still be a lot of community work to be done, on many fronts.

Right now Revolution seems to be squarely focused on meeting the needs of programmers and I realize that this may be a necessary stage in a larger process. After all, who else will develop our snippets, plugins, modules and widgets? I personally feel that if widespread adoption of MODx Revolution is to occur, it will likely be fueled by developers such as myself who tend not to create the tools (code), but who tend to successively deploy them in new and creative ways. I think that is likely one of the reasons why CMS systems like WordPress have enjoyed a broader appeal comparatively. We don’t want developers to become disenfranchised because MODx is perceived as a programmers tool with an overwhelming learning curve. Just don’t forget that we are sitting in the audience too. I hope everyone contributing to MODx keeps that in mind as this project moves forward and as more MODxpos are planned.

  • http://www.shemale-cam.net Shemale Cam

    Sounds like a very interesting gathering

  • http://twitter.com/netProphET Mike Schell

    I had a really great time in Dallas as well, and it was fantastic to meet you, other users and the core team.
    It's great to read some constructive criticism.
    I didn't get the feeling that the Revo stuff was programmer-centric myself, but I'm a programmer, so I just must not have noticed :P
    Could you list off a few of the “commonly used resources” that you feel are missing from Revo? Also, don't be shy to file tickets in Jira.. it's not just for core bugs. It'd be great if more people were on there; with greater adoption, the community could be voting in a more meaningful way for the components they need in Revo.
    Cheers

  • http://www.gregorysmart.com Gregory Smart

    In trying to contrast some of the presentations I would probably point to Shaun McCormick's and Charlie Madison's.

    Shaun's presentation where he showed us how to create Wayfinder like output in about 6 lines of code was really cool, but from my perspective that is essentially PHP short-hand. I don't have enough a working knowledge of PHP to quickly write even that simple code. I can see all the potential in the world in that demo, but I don't necessarily have the keys to unlock that door.

    Charlie's presentation was on templating. His was more about organization of existing resources, rather than creating new ones. His presentation potentially had more of an impact on my work than any of the others. Honestly, I think his was the only one that had direct implications for my day-to-day work, it was the only one that didn't go over my head and pushed my way of thinking in a different direction. I had really hoped for more presentations in this vein going into the conference.

    Here's another example: I spoke with Shaun about contributing some time on the CSS needs of the Revo admin, that's right up my alley. He tried to talk me through the process after his presentation and first thing I did when I got back was to download Tortoise SVN. It's been 3 days now and I still haven't been able to get it working, it's just not in my normal repertoire.

    I really did enjoy the conference and I don't want to give an impression otherwise. This is one of the first times this has really come into focus for me. I love MODx, it has changed my work and my company, but I have a better appreciation for why a lot of less technically skilled users might get intimidated at the prospect of adopting MODX.

    I'm not sure I answered all your questions, but am getting pretty long-winded here. Thanks, Greg.

  • ChuckTrukk

    Hey Greg,

    First, thanks a lot for the encouragement. It means a lot to me so thanks.

    I was talking to Kris Sarratt also after the conference and he mentioned the same things. What do you feel are the most needed addons?

    My list is:
    - Ditto (replaced with getResources)
    - Wayfinder
    - eForm (replaced with Form-It)
    - PHx (included in Revo but needs the small filters)
    - Jot

    A lot of the xpdo stuff is more for developers in accessing the database. I can also see the need for a module that lets you create the custom TVs shaun demonstrated.

    What do you feel are the most needed addons?

  • http://www.gregorysmart.com Gregory Smart

    Here is my list of most common resources I use, I am not sure of their individual statuses in Revo:

    Ditto and Wayfinder – I am not 100% sure why these two remain two separate resources (i know there are good reasons), I use Wayfinder for a lot of my navigation because I realize there is a performance advantage, but it is really difficult to structure output compared to Ditto, Ditto's filters are powerful, but can be difficult to learn and structure (can tell you how many times I've read and re-read the Ditto basic filtering page)

    PHx – this is invaluable, it took me a long time to find, learn and wrap my head about this resource, I'm not sure how best to help new users find this sooner, but would be nice

    ManagerManager – definitely in the top3, would be nice if you could use it to place limitations on the document tree, like number of docs at 1st level or only allow docs to go 3 levels deep, etc…

    GetField – use this all the time, it's great to be able to reach in to any doc and return a value

    eForm – am using it more and more all the time

    Jot/Reflect – have had mixed results with trying to use these, I don't honestly use them and tend to opt for Disqus, easier implementation of these “blogging” type features would be great, same with the forum features

    Config – I use the config page technique I posted about a lot, it might be user friendly to have a native place to create global variables rather than require that they be directly associated with a particular document

    Was that the type of info you were looking for?

  • jamesrotering

    It was great meeting you Greg, however briefly. I think I can relate to where you are coming from here with your assessment of the state of Revo. One way of looking at it that was touched on at some point during the conference is that MODx has gone from being a super-flexible CMS (in Evo) to being a super-duper-mega-flexible CMF (in Revo). That's the main reason (in my opinion) that Revo isn't currently a turn-key solution for developers: all of the developer tools in the CMS toolkit have been stripped out. I don't think it ever will be a turnkey solution in its out-of-the-box state. What will eventually open the floodgates, I'm predicting, will be when customized Revo builds – geared toward being more of a turnkey solution for developers – start getting packaged and become available. Before that can happen there will need to be a lot more development of those useful tools, and a lot of community-based knowledge sharing (deploying the tools in new and creative ways).

    Also, object-oriented PHP code can be pretty intimidating to look at for those of us who have only dabbled/hacked with PHP up til now. Learning the API looks to be pretty essential in mastering Revo. I think the community will gradually pick it up more and more – as new utilities are built and shared and played with. I'm looking forward to seeing how it all plays out…

  • http://twitter.com/lossendae Stephane

    Hello Gregory,

    Ditto has been converted to Revolution, but you should check getResources which do almost the same things quicker and simpler.

    Wayfinder is also converted and working flawlessly.

    PHx is part of Revolution core know as output filters.

    An equivalent of ManagerManager is also part of the core in Revolution.

    getField has bann converted to Revolution.

    A more elegant solution than eForm is available for Revolution (FormIt)

    The same is happening for Jot, has Quip gain more options release after release. It already have nested comments which Jot still don't have.

    I don't know About Reflect and Config statuses.

  • http://www.gregorysmart.com Gregory Smart

    You took the words right out of my mouth. Nice to meet you too.

  • http://www.gregorysmart.com Gregory Smart

    Thanks for the info. Shaun referred me over to you about getting started with some of the CSS coding needed on the back end. I will DM you pretty soon. Thanks.

  • http://twitter.com/lossendae Stephane

    I will be happy to contribute and work with you to enhance the backend which is imho developper ready, but will make less experienced potential user run away from Revolution on GA release.

    That is a shame, Revolution is really a masterpiece, i've totally switched to it. It's even easier to work than Evo.

    Waiting to hear more from you.

  • http://www.gregorysmart.com Gregory Smart

    Thank you. I agree with with you. Evo is great (I use it exclusively) and based on what I have seen Revo will be even better. I have high expectations for Revo, but don't have any real practical experience with it. I really have not been making any specific complaints about Revo.

    As I attended MODxpo I began to realize that there were a lot of programmers attending and a few developers. I consider myself as having enough experience to appreciate the MODx project from both perspectives. What I have been attempting to relate is that the team has done a great job of appealing to programmers, but has probably fallen a little short in appealing to pure developers (this is probably multifaceted, not just technical). My assumption is that what I picked up on in the conference likely trickles down through the community communication tools.

    I know that as I began to work with MODx a couple of years ago I often had to ask myself, “Do I have the technical skills to work with this tool, do I have the time to devote to it”? As great as Revo may be I'm not sure that a new developer would not naturally ask the same question with regards to Revo. I don't know if that necessarily happens with other tools, like WP. I'm just point out what may be a hurdle to truly widespread adoption of MODx by new developers.

  • BobRay

    I think one solution to the issues you bring up is simply time. Remember that Revolution hasn't even reached a GA release yet. Once that happens, I think there will be an exponential increase in both users and contributors. At present, the discussion is programmer-centric because the people creating Revolution are, of necessity, programmers and many of the designer-friendly tools haven't been developed yet.

    You can make the case the Revolution is now programmer-centric (as I'm sure Evo was in its early days), but I don't think it's a permanent condition. When I tried to make WordPress actually do what I wanted it to, it required serious programming skills and a great deal of frustration — much more so than Revolution. Everything you do in Evolution is done pretty much the same way in Revolution (only easier and faster) with the exception of permissions.

    The new permission system is a little harder to grasp, but gives you much more control over what users can see and do and, once you get it, it's not really that complicated.

    Because of the immense power and productivity due to xPDO and the new architecture combined with the unbelievable installation capabilities of the new Package Manager, I think you will see MODx add-on components that we couldn't even imagine for Evo.

    I expect to see a kind of bootstrapping effect where designers ask for tools which are provided by programmers and then more experienced developers help turn those tools into packages that can be installed or updated with a few clicks in Package Manager. The designers will provide feedback and the tools will be improved until they meet everyone's needs.

    As an example, let me mention SPForm, which creates a simple, spam-proof email contact form. In Evolution, users had to copy about 16 files, cut and paste code into three snippets and two chunks, and then manually edit three configuration files. I converted it to Revolution and created a Transport Package with little difficulty. Now, with a few clicks, users can have a working contact form on their sites in about 5 minutes and can configure it in a grid in the MODx Manager.

    Formit didn't exist at that time, so I created SPForm from scratch. If I were doing it today, I'd probably build it to work with Formit and I expect the whole process could be done in a day or two.

    Formit can produce any kind of form and can interact with the database very easily so it can be leveraged to create tremendously powerful add-ons in a very short time. Over time, I expect that MODx will have some amazing tools for designers.

    One last comment, in my MODx book (“finished,” but still being edited and updated), I include a PHP primer to help designers who want to develop programming skills that will help them get the most out of Revolution..

  • http://www.gregorysmart.com Gregory Smart

    Thanks for your comments. I completely agree that time (and a great product) will take care of a lot of this. I have decided it is about time to rework this site and move it to MODx, it's really going to give me a chance to “get my hands dirty” with Revo.

    I can't wait to read the book too, especially the primer. As we were listening to the presentations about the partner program at the conference I was thinking wouldn't it be great to have MODx/PHP “boot camp” type event or learning materials available for individuals/companies that invest in the program?

  • http://www.creative-process.com David

    I didn't get to Dallas but find the thread here interesting. My adoption of Modx is due to one thing – that the overall paradigm of the thing seems to allow equal access to users with code, development or design perspectives. as an utter amateur designer/coder I find i can change hats with Modx whenever I need to and the learning curve is not too great – this is also why I loathe most of the other CMSes out there, written mostly by coders who seem to suffer from beurocratic role displacement, forgetting that the point of the project is to enable non-coders to create websites..
    Anyway, my point is that it may be a risky business putting too much emphasis on the coding potential of Revo, at this early stage, because as many other bad scripts prove, coders can make assumptions about designers needs that are not within their expertise, with the result that the design functionality ends up forced to hack the code base.
    The simple solution here is to collaborate as much as possible, even at the eariest stages with designers (and other forms of user) so that convenient code doesn't compromise the final products flexibility for those who end up using the script.
    Collaboration such as this is also where truly innovative ideas are found.

    Funny this issue is an exact replica of the issues that I see regularly in architectural practise – buildings are conceived with abstract users in mind (and therefore abstract problems are forseen) – the final product is often stylish in architectural terms, but make the real function of the building less versatile (a certain library that didn't make floors strong enough for tonnes of books springs to mind).

    It has been said that adoption of Revo will expand when resources are added – these resources and how elegantly they fit with the core is what Revo's success will depend upon, that and developers and designers perception that the code was written with their existing expertise in mind.
    I have tried Revo – was prepared to use it as a production base even though it is a beta – and I felt decidedly excluded, even though I know Evo well and am ok with OO php – but it is early days, and Modx has won my loyalty, so no doubt I'll be back.

  • http://www.gregorysmart.com Gregory Smart

    Thanks for the comment. I agree, collaboration is the key (that was my motivation for this post).

    I really like your site design btw.

  • ChuckTrukk

    Hey David,

    The problem isn't that the core needs to be hacked because it's less versatile. The core of modx and the #1 goal of the modx team is to make modx ultimately flexible.

    In modx you can do anything multiples of ways. What's happened in Evolution- some programmers created defacto ways for designers to do things like Ditto, ManagerManager, etc.

    In revo, we developers are still wrapping our heads around all of the extra functionality available. No functionality or flexibility of modx has been removed. There's much much more flexibility (custom TVs, managermanager built it, multi-sites, more flexible user access levels, system settings/site settings/user settings, more plugins)

    So revo is much much much more flexible. We all just need to jump in and see how we best we can utilize these extra features.

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  • http://www.facebook.com/people/David-Faria/655313796 David Faria

    BobRay,

    I'm interested in your book. Is it published yet?

  • BobRay

    Not yet. I'm working on it day and night and we hope to have it out soon.

    Thanks for asking :)

    Bob